Reed, Evans, McLaughlin, Payne -- All blinded by the idea that this is a win-lose battle and they are finally in a position to win what they have wanted for years. Public input does not matter at this point. The decision was made on election night. The objective now is to push it through before the new superintendent is hired. Oh yeah, that's being worked behind the scenes too.

The issue has never been about whether more sleep is better for kids. The issue is what do they have to give up for a later high school start time. And how does it affect elementary schools, middle schools, buses in rush hour, limited access to gyms and fields, and all the activities that kids love and need as part of growing up. SLEEP Incorporated has no solution except their own and the hell with everyone who understands why the current schedules are the best compromise.

We now know how this new school board works. Make a decision and tell the professional staff to come up with data to support it. God help us.

Your concern about public resources should be directed instead toward the significant cost to taxpayers of early start times. Research shows that early start times result in wasted instruction and may create an avoidable need for remediation. First, early start times create sleep-deprived teens who can only partially focus their attention and therefore cannot learn efficiently. Students who are unable to fully engage in learning will miss out on core instruction and need to be retaught essential material. Besides paying for instruction twice, this prevents teachers from devoting time to the enrichment that can extend learning. Second, the lack of sufficient sleep caused by early start times prevents students from consolidating memory, which is essential for learning and retaining new information. Third, low-quality sleep and sleep deprivation caused by early start times significantly impacts mood, which has negative consequences on learning and behavior. Teens functioning with a sleep deficit are more likely to experience symptoms such as depression, have difficulty relating to peers and adults, and use alcohol and other drugs -- all factors which lead to costly disciplinary actions which require alternative instruction, alternative busing, additional staff, etc. In responding to the SCIENCE of sleep and learning, high school start times after 8:00 am increase the potential for more efficient and effective use of limited FCPS resources and will save taxpayer dollars.

Really? When was the last time you tried to get a teenager to go to bed earlier? They have WAY too much on their plates to get to bed at a time that would ever allow them the sleep they need! There is far too much pressure on our teens with sports, AP classes that pile on the already large amount of homework, work (yes, many have to as parents don't always have the money to keep them in shoes and pay their phone bills) for them to ever get to bed early. It is easy to put a younger child to bed early. The times for schools have been backwards for far too long. Let the younger ones go early and allow our teens to get some sleep!

As a retired Fairfax County taxpayer with no children in schools, I still pay for the education of the children in our community. And that education must provide every student with the best possible education so that they have every opportunity to be as successful as possible and to become productive members of our community.

Scientific research at NIH and many universities has linked Circadian Rhythms to the ability to learn and to remember what has been taught. The ability to learn is influenced by, among other things, the world we live in, the hours of daylight, the times the sun rises and sets, our weather and the change of seasons. According to research these cycical changes in our environment directly influence our lives and our ability to learn and to remember. So in an area like ours with changes in our environment throughout the year there is no one time school should start that is perfect for every day of the year. The best solution from an ability to learn perspective would most likely be start times that change by seasons of the year.

Varying school start time as our environment changes through the year is not a practical solution for most families who need to schedule their time around parents work and other family obligations and activities.

Research has also shown that the Circadian Rhythms that influence our ability to learn and remember can be modified by diet, lighting, etc. Might these changes in our schools be just as effective and cost less?

Elizabeth, Thank you for that perspective. It is hard to communicate in the 3 minutes I was allotted last night just how detailed the proposals were in 2008-2009, and just how actively the SLEEP advocates participated in the process and helped craft the various proposals that were developed. I only wish that you and others who share your perspective had been as vocal with the Board before last night's vote as you had been in 2009. Watching the discussion at last night's meeting left me with the impression that the new Board members have neither read nor understood the history of this issue. They are now poised to force an unacceptable "solution" on an unsuspecting public.

Stu's comment is spot on. "They are now poised to force an unacceptable "solution" on an unsuspecting public."

I've talked to somewhere between 40-50 folks with school age kids since the earlier article on this initiative broke a couple of weeks ago, and only 3 had heard about it. It's powerful that these changes are being pushed through with a near complete lack of visibility to the majority in the county.

I still cannot believe that the Board has endorsed / asked this dead horse to be studied again. I don't want my tax dollars spent that way.

Good point. I have unfortunately witnessed how community engagement is sometimes employed in an inconsistent manner. Case in point: the recent proposal by FCPS to institute an "online high school." Where is the community engagement for that proposal?

SOunds so plausible because when people get older they change their sleep habits too. Here in the UK, school starts at 8:50am. Ends at 3:15. Every six weeks we have a week off from school. School ends 23 JUly and starts around 5 September. It's a great schedule. Children in the USA (and I was one!) need more breaks....

What is not said - bedtimes for students in grade school, middle school and high school are? Do the children set their own hours or do the parents??????
"Early to bed and early to rise makes a person...........
From school days to now, my self set bedtime hasn't change all that much. <grin>

Mr. Gibson, the science is solid but that is not enough for you or the rest of the community? I struggle every morning to get my son to wake up early enough to eat (he refuses to eat) and get ready for school (throws a sweatshirt over the t-shirt he slept in)...and I drive him to school so that he can wake at 6:15 and not 5:45 am. He sleep walks from the minute he gets up, through the ride to school and as I watch him walk into school. His grade in his first class has gone from an A to a low C over the course of the year....and this is a class that he took in 8th grade and is retaking because we wanted him to have a solid understanding of Algebra and felt he did not get it in 8th grade. He has developed stomach issues, anxiety and depression. He cries because he just wants to sleep. I have given up on him getting a decent education this year. I just want him to be healthy and happy. On Wednesdays when school starts at 8 am, he gets up, showers, eats and goes to school promptly - because I am driving him at 7:30 and he is not taking the 6:30 bus. What is your response to that?

If SLEEP's candidates won their elections -- and they all were clear where they stood on this issue -- then the people have spoken, and it's time for their wishes to be honored. It's time for the elected officials to order staff to formulate a plan, which is what has happened. Incredible as it is to believe, sometimes citizens know more than elected officials about how to raise their kids.

Yes, I'm sure he'll find a lot of solutions by studying Wilton, CT (as directed by the genius school board resolution), a town with a grand total of 5 schools. How many schools does Fairfax have? Isn't it slightly more than 5?

To Casey Groves - Fairfax County as 104 elementary school, 18 junior high schools and 24 high schools. The bus drivers "answer so many bells" in a day, depending on proximity of the schools. My brother drove a school bus for a number of years. Some years he answered 2 bells (2 sets of schools.for the area he was assigned to and some years he answered 3 bells). So his day began by picking up his school bus and making the rounds to deliver children of different ages to their appropriate school. He got a break some years and some years he didn't. So no lunch or maybe sub for another driver and pick the other driver's bus load as well as his own. That was not by combining two sets of students into one run, but one run after another. Yes, I think Fairfax County has more schools than Wilton CT. We won't talk about old busses who had well over 2 thousand miles on them and kept breaking down. The marvel was that somehow the garages kept them on the road.

Get them off the Xbox.....

Elizabeth...my children participate in sports and they like to hit the computer after homework is done. But they are so tired after school that all they do is sleep or sit in front of the tv until it is time to head back to school for practice. Wouldn't it be better to let them sleep an hour later before school and then feel stronger and healthier for a complete day? They do it in Loudoun county.

I agree!!! Kids need more exercise to reduce obesity, so I say we require them to have PE class at 5 am, just like Marines. Because discipline is so essential, they should get more homework, at least five hours a night! To make 'em into really TOUGH adults like you, they need to learn to get by on four hours of sleep a night. Capitalism can't thrive without workaholics! Free markets uper alles, except kids, who must be managed within an inch of their lives. And to HECK with science and research. Scientists are just colluding to take over the empirical world. BELIEF is all that is real. And Mine is always more Real than Yours.

Self discipline? Really? That has nothing to do it with SLS. My son went to school yesterday, had practice after school and arrived home at 6:15 pm. He showered, had dinner and collapsed on the couch at 7:30. At 8:15 he said he was tired and going to bed. Forget about homework - too tired to concentrate. He woke at 6:15 this morning and still sleep-walked to the car. His report card - all B's and an A EXCEPT for the two classes he takes at 7:20 am - low C's! What are these classes? Art (C in art?) and Algebra 1 (which he is retaking due to Kilmer's terrible approach to teaching math). He sleeps through these classes. Where is the lack of discipline there?

Hear, hear! I am confident that these school board members will engage the public in looking at the many options that are available to us. Real stakeholder involvement is how other systems (no matter what size) successfully made the transition.

Apparently others seem to believe they elected the School Board NOT to revisit this issue this year. And as for "community involvement," some seem to believe that this means asking only certain people for their views. There is no doubt that, before voting to establish a "goal" of changing the bell schedule, the School Board was not interested in soliciting the views of the thousands of people in our community who opposed changing the bell schedule just three years ago (and, from this comment thread, still oppose it today). One group's well-organized advocacy does NOT equal widespread community support.

Boos to the School Board for caving to a tiny minority.

Very well said! I have children in both elementary and high school and no one seems to be talking about the impact it would have on elementary students. My teen in high school doesn't want to see the times changed and she plays after school sports and maintains all honors/ap classes.

We also still have a large number of families who rely on high school students to take care of their elementary siblings after school.

I can't believe we are debating this again after only three years!!! There are so many things FCPS could do with the money they will spend again on this issue.

Well LUCKY YOU!!! Now I will say I DO have a child completely affected by this start time. I wonder what the added cost is to Fairfax County for this 1 child to be in ALL LD courses because she now has a Sleep Disorder(which wasn't the case in Elementary School). A child who was once Honer Roll, a child with an unbelievable photo-graphic memory. So what about her dreams of going to college or even just being in a class and not falling to sleep? A 1hr delay wouldn't drastically hinder anyone's schedule. The health and well-being of ALL FFX County PUBLIC School students is what is important and not just a few who need to go to soccer practice.

Bravo to your children! What about those that do indeed have issues with keeping up with studies and being awake for their first class. For every child who does not have a problem, there is one that does. When I drive my children to school because I believe they would benefit from not rising at 5:45 am to catch a bus, I am congesting the road with my car....as are the hundreds others who drive their kids to school. As is evidenced by the traffic, rush hour has already begun at 7:00 when I am trying to get them to school on time. If the HS swaps with the elementary school start times, the middle school start times, stay the same. Elementary school age kids are early risers. High school age kids are not as proven by science. Yes. Some do get up and go to their swim practice or whatever they do at 4:00 in the morning, but that is a small minority.

Personally, what gets under my hat, are that general taxpayer dollars are being spent by what essentially amounts to a special interest group, to yet again, study and make recommendations on issues that were decisively put down by the majority in FFX Cty a scant few years ago. It's almost inexcusable for the Board to allow this to go forward if they purport to represent the general majority interest.

THIS IS NOT AN EXPENSE NEUTRAL CHANGE as proposed pursuant to the lengthy 2008 study. 2008's official estimates reported by the committee pegged the incremental annual expense at $42M in 2008 dollars just to operate the 500 additional buses required to support a later high school start time. It would no doubt be more today given the price of fuel. Here's the link to the county report;
http://www.fcps.edu/fts/taskforce07/documents/index.shtml
The applicable verbage is immediately below.

Committee Recommendations on Alternative Bell Schedules
• SLIDE committee
The Slide Committee recommended that a “slide” bell schedule alternative should start HS around 8 a.m. The FCPS Transportation Department did a rough calculation and estimated that reducing the delivery window in this way would require on the order of 500 additional buses, resulting in an annual operating cost increase of approximately $42 MILLION.

"Both an independent consultant and staff have shown that high schools could start later at zero cost."

Is this information publicly available? Or is it only available to members of SLEEP?

"There are many options for Fairfax citizens."

Of course, these will only be options that assume a start time of 8:00am. The option of retaining the current schedule simply won't be offered. You've decided that for us.

To those who think PerfectMosInUniverse UniqueAmongStars FCPS is incomparable to other suburban distrircts re start times, here's a little eye-opener: Cobb County School District, GA. 114 schools, 19 high schools. High school start times: 8:20 am. MS start times: 9:15 am. ES start times: 7:50 am. http://www.cobbk12.org/generalinfo/calendars/2011-12/2011-2012_SchoolStartTimes.pdf

Demographics mirror FCPS:

• Total Enrollment - 106,509 (Sept. 2011)
• Total Number of Schools – 114
• Elementary Schools – 69
• Middle Schools - 25
• High Schools - 16
• Special Education Centers - 2
• Adult Education Center - 1
• Performance Learning Center - 1

Ethnic Breakdown of Students - March 2011

• White 44.5%
• Black 31.2%
• Hispanic 16.5%
• Asian 4.8%
• Multi-Racial 2.7%
• American Indian <0.1%

Percentage of Students Qualifying for Free/Reduced Lunch (2010-11) - 43 %

THIS BOARD HAS DUMBED DOWN OUR SYSTEM. This issue with mentioned with the dumbing down of grades, reintstement of Honors without adeauqate data to bake it up, lack of dicipline policies, because Bobby didn;t mean to sneek those drugs into school, latter school stimes because students chose other others habits rather than seelp, etc, Tha Board members with common sense need to have some backbone and speak up. I know you are their and so are those who voted for you. Ms Brown if my memory serves me right you lost, Reed won with out an opponent and Schultz one becuase she had the first name "elizabeth" Werern't you so lucky?

I hope elizabeth gets some real help with the anger she is venting here. This seems so personal, vindictive and narcissistic I have to wonder if it's Elizabeth Bradsher? Oh, dear. Poor elizabeth. This sure looks like a cry for help...and maybe a dictionary (or at least spellcheck).

A BUS?!? You had a BUS?!!!!!!! Why, in my day, I had to get up at 4am, feed the chickens, plow forty acres, wash up and WALK 5 miles, no matter the weather, to get to school by 7am. It was UPHILL BOTH DIRECTIONS!!!!!! And we were damn grateful to even have a school. The only thing that bothered me was we couldn't afford shoes so the broken glass and sharp rocks on the road would cut my feet pretty bad. But it was worth it to get an education.

For Eliabeth: Just this past year they "dumbed down" the education? Aw no, been at it for many years. My children can testify to that. The county kept changing the material to be taught. PHOOEY! They were taught to the level of the most unready in their classes. If any of you were not in the county when my children were in the "system" you don't know about the material. It kept being changed accommodate the least minds, not the best minds. We were introducing foreign children to American schools and the American language.

For Concerned Parent - ever get in a hurry and frustrated with what she wants to say? Sarcasm is nasty stuff. I hope you get your share soon. Help you a great deal.

I respect your comment about traffic. My family lives in North Reston, toward the end of Langley's boundary, and our buses travel a fair distance down Georgetown Pike to get to school. The last thing that I want is for my child to sit on a bus any longer than they already do. So I took it upon myself to contact VDOT, and they've been extremely helpful to me in providing traffic data (specifically turn counts) at specific stop light locations along the commute to Langley (both west and east of the beltway). I requested data in November of 2011, during a week when Fairfax had two teacher work days. I then compared the numbers between the beginning of the week when school was out with the end of the week when classes resumed. The results were incredibly interesting. Data from that week suggested that if we were to move Langley's start time to 8:30 (from 7:20), the kids would actually be in less traffic for their morning commute than they currently are. VDOT has also been kind enough to provide me with counts for the week of spring break, which I plan to compare with next week's traffic data. If we can do similar studies for other pyramids where traffic is a large issue, I'm certain we can identify optimal school start times that address the issue of congestion in Fairfax.

That is why there is a school bus system. Not your business to be the transportation to and from school. The bus system is there to transport the students. Thank God your children do not have to get to and from school by public transportation as the children in DC do.

Please explain to me the difference between taking high schoolers to school "during rush hour" and taking elementary schoolers to school "during rush hour." If we swap the start times of these two age groups, how does it affect the commute to school? Perhaps I am missing something.

The saga of Liz Bradsher's (or Elizabeth Bradsher's) inability to obtain an endorsement from the Republicans or the Democrats during the last election is fascinating. How surprising that anyone would believe having the name Elizabeth would be an asset during that school board election.

Your response and then Janet I am over you:
There was no data available on general ed classes, vs APs before the decision was made.
Later school times have a domino effect on many other issues and these need to be studied carefully and were studyied by the Board several years ago.
I have children in sports and they work, some days are tough but it is a good intro to the real world and to responsibility.
No one in Springfield belives they are lucky --you don't live in this distirct so back off toots.
Elizabeth Bradsher, the name means a lot to those who respect courage and integrity. Obviously you don't

I believe there is something called School After Care for those who need care for their elementary school children. Or am I wrong? Parents should be at the bus stop with the little kids regardless of the time the bus comes. So, who cares if it is dark. I am more uncomfortable with my high school daughter standing at the bus stop in the dark - she won't let me stand with her - too embarrassing.

So is it safe for high schoolers to also be out there in the dark? My children are in high and elementary schools and I want NONE of them out there when it is that dark outside. How about middle schools start at 7:30, high schools at 8:00 and elementary at 9:00? It would give time for the older kids to be at home watching the younger and also the younger will not have to go in the dark. High schoolers will be able to get enough sleep to handle their rigorous AP courses and sports while middle schoolers, who will be out in 2 years anyway and do not have a heavy course load to get up early for 2 years.

Well, you have at least one fact wrong. Adult sports are already required to start after 8PM, not 7 as you claim.
FCPS practices and games start at least an hour after dismissal because of the logistics of transportation. Moving back school times will, in fact, cause after-school times to be used as well - you can't just start practice immediately after the bell, because the logistical issues will still be there.

Paying a neighbor isn't the same as having your own kids do the babysitting for what should be obvious financial reasons. Lack of SACC seats is not the only factor in that question.

It's not that it can't be made to work - but at least start with a more accurate representation of the issue. Proponents of SLEEP pretend they can waive their magic wand and everything will be fixed. Yes, your science is sound. But I have read EVERYTHING available from SLEEP and am not convinced they fully understand that other people have needs too, and their needs are also valid.

I'm tired of the insinuation that we must not care about kids just because we think your issue isn't ready for prime time.

Who says your child has to get to bed by 8pm? If you believe the SLEEP drones, that's simply impossible - no teenager can go to bed before 11pm!

Your numbers don't add up.
4 hours homework + 3 hours practice + 7 hours in school + shower and eat meals at home + transportation time = not enough actual hours left in the day for the sleep teens need, no matter when you schedule them!

My point is that adding in even an extra hour of sleep would be helpful in reducing the sleep deficit. And yes, there are some days that there is more homework or studying, and there are some days with less. But on the average, by the end of the week my child is seriously sleep deprived. Maybe you don't feel it's worth it, but I think that extra hour of sleep a day would make a huge difference in the quality of life for many teens.

An extra hour WOULD be worth it. But that's not the actual result you would get.
Until you cut out one of the activities, you haven't actually made any room for an extra hour of sleep. You've just shifted the existing hours to a different time.

I believe that shifting the school start times later an hour would help, because the times would more closely match the teen sleep cycle. Yes, they would still have homework and activities, but I know from experience that if you are more alert, you understand things better, and you are more efficient. So my belief is that students would be able to get more done in a shorter amount of time. I know when I'm sleep deprived, it takes me twice as long to get something that requires a lot of cognitive thinking done than it does when I am well rested. I'm not going to debate actual hours with you - that would be silly, because everybody has a different schedule. But having start times that more closely match teen body rhythms will definitely help many students get the most out of their day.

BTW, you are right that this may not help my child, because we do have a lot of hours of homework and activities. But I do think it will help others, so that is why I think we should at least try to come up with a workable solution. I also think that teachers assign way too much busywork as homework - I am all for it when it serves a useful purpose, but a lot of the stuff that I'm seeing is just busywork (and I'm talking honors and AP). Seems like in order for a class to be deemed honors or AP, they assume that means assigning tons of homework. I'm all for homework, but I want it to serve a useful purpose. Writing research papers - absolutely. Copying pages and pages of notes out of a textbook - not so much.

Thank you Sandra. Finally an intelligent analysis of the situation.

To those who say the kids should go to bed earlier - do you have a high school student and do they go to bed at 8:30 am? Do they get up at 5:45 am to catch the 6:30 bus? If you can show me evidence that the majority of high school students do this, then I will shut up.

I agree. Not only are those reasons for starting schools later completely correct, but it is also more safer. To elaborate, let me tell you about my neighborhood, which has really poor lighting and the kids have to stand in the middle of the road, and some of them dont live ANYWHERE near their stops. Some walk in the dark for a long distance and it is scary out there from November-February when it is so dark outside, you cant even see if there is a car parked in front of you. It is really scary what these kids have to do, and I myself am scared to walk that early (6:30 ish) in the morning. FCPS students deserve more than this.

So you think it is acceptable for a kindergartener to get on a bus at 6:20 am?

So you want elementary students standing around at a bus stop at 6 am? How well is that going to fly with those parents?

Why would Kindergareners have to get on the bus at 6:20? The reason that buses at Robinson Secondary so early is that they commute further AND try getting upwards of 5000 people on one campus with access of only 2 single lane roads. It take forever to get your child there, not to mention people competing with rush hour traffic(yes in this area, that is the start of rush hour if you have ever driven it). Now as for the Elementary school children, it takes 15 minutes even with the few miles on the Congested FFX County Parkway. The reason that is it quicker? It is simple, there are simply more Elementary Schools in the area.

This is really simple pick up the elemtary kids drop them off and then turn around. At least in my neighborhood it is a 1:15minute loop with traffic. Also, the bus stops in this area are consolidated as 2 stops will fill up a bus.

What I have been thinking was, wouldn't it be great if FFX County could offer by student choice, a few 7:00am courses in Gym so that the early risers could get there classes done early? A staggered shift might even help with traffic issues at these EXTREMELY large schools. Of course parent drop-off would be required, but I have found that many of these parents already do.

@Deb - Ok, for grins lets say 6:40 am for K-6 bus pick-up time. By the way, there are elementary bus routes that are nearly an hour long (55 mins) each way. Yes, they do exist in Fairfax County as not everyone lives within a stones throw of an elementary school. So assuming a 7:20 start time, these long route students would arrive at school 15 minutes late every day. Have you seen how dark it is in late November through late February at 6:20 in the morning? And believe it or not, there are areas of Fairfax County without streetlights and sidewalks (actual subdivisions, yes). Sounds like a great idea from a safety perspective alone to have 5 to 11-year-old children standing at bus stops in morning darkness for about half of the school year.

I don't know why everyone brings up Loudoun County. Aren't the geographic and demographic differences obvious?

Here's a fun fact: Of the 14 largest suburban school districts in the US (including Fairfax, but not Loudoun!), none of them start after 8 am.

I'm SO TIRED of you pretending you're the only person who cares!

Stop acting like you're the only one with a brain!

The fact is the issues CAN be solved. But UNTIL you show us a REAL solution to day care, sports, little kids in the dark, and all the other issues, you're just blowing smoke. Give us a REAL plan that proves you're not just punishing someone else's kids to get what you want. I've read your plans and they DON'T answer the issues, they pretend there's nothing to address.

Get off your high horse and admit that the rest of us are human, too.

Sabrina - you don't even make sense. My son goes to sleep as soon as his after school sport and homework is done. When he has to get up for his 7:20 class, he does not eat, he sleep walks to class and he is not doing well in those 7:20 classes. The one day per week that Marshall HS starts at 8 am, I drive him to school - he wakes up at 7:15, takes a shower, eats and actually remembers his first class and what he did. Sleep does indeed affect a teen's ability to learn - it affects every person's ability to do everything. If all humans did not sleep enough, mistakes would be made in jobs, there would be more traffic accidents, health would suffer. Please think before you make such statements.
Also, we elected officials to the school board who support our beliefs. So it is not just two kids who are having issues with sleep and school.

Nice thought, but college classes don't start until at least 8 am. Sounds like a good plan for HS as well.

Please! I have been to College and took 7:00am classes, they were the easiest ones to get for a reason.

I don't recall taking ANY classes in college that began in the 7-8 am hours. Haven't looked at recent course offerings but seems the norm was not for them to start before 9

ok well not collage how about jobs

What about start times for Jobs??? Unless you are Government, around FFX County, that is usually between 8:30am and 10:00am, especially in Tysons/Reston and Herndon.

It is funny, but I don't wake up at 5:00am to be at work by 7:00am...Why, because I need at least 7hrs a night or my work performance is shot!!! So how does this prepare kids for the "real world" by having earlier start times?

Sabrina - I think you mean college - and I only took one 8 am class my freshman in college and then knew it was not for me. For those who can handle an early rise, then they can CHOOSE early classes. For those who can't, they can CHOOSE different options.

I have lived in Fairfax County since 1975. High School always started between 7:05 and 7:20...depending on which high school you went to.

So, no one starts before 8am? So, everyone gets home when - 5 pm? In the middle of rush hour traffic? Pretty good plan!

If you lived such a nightmare, why didn't you move for the good of your son? As the SLEEP drones love to point out, there are neighboring counties that different schedules.

8:30 are you serious do us teens have a say in this

wow , so little kids who have not developed as much as high school students are gonna wake up at 6 now wow

Ann - where does your 7th grader go to school that he or she has to get on a bus at 6:20 am? For middle school?

@elaine newhart - There are several Secondary Schools in FCPS. Those schools cover 7-12 grade. These are the schools where middle school students travel with high school students and therefore have to follow the high school schedule of class start times of 7:20. A fair number of students attending Lake Braddock, South County, Hayfield and Robinson board buses around (or in some cases prior to) 6:20 am.

elizabeth-

" I will only run on a platform "

Are you seeking public office? Or have you held a position in the past?

"Check out the great work being done by the Unified Prevention Coalition"

I have heard good things about this group---Lisa Adler is the President, I believe. Are you Lisa?

"Fiiar Greenburg "

Are you insulting the President of FCFT?

Why is it ridiculous? Have you looked at all the evidence and studies? Or are you like so many others who speak before they have really considered: what is important (the education and health of our children).

@ Phyllis -- Cool .. Can you pls add links to this post that expand on what the cost-neutral solutions are? I haven't seen them in any of the official county links regarding this issue. Also, just curious, are you the original co-founder of SLEEP?

The other thing that really alarms me about this issue, is the near complete lack of general public visibility regarding the renewal of this initiative. I've talked to 40-50 people with school age kids since the 1st article on this initiative broke a couple of weeks ago and only 3 had even heard a peep about all this.

My little canvasing exercise sort of suggests that the sleeping giant ..., i.e. the majority that this will impact in ways discussed in this thread, have yet to engage in this debate. That is, if this really can be a debate.

Phyllis, I'll repeat Razz's request - where is this report that shows a cost neutral solution? Why hasn't it been shown to the public for review? Is it only available to members of SLEEP?

"There are many different options." Again, you state this. Of course, the option of retaining the current the schedule simply won't be presented. You've already decided that.

Phyllis,

We're still waiting for that report that shows the cost neutral options. Do you have it? If it can't be released to the public, then why does SLEEP have access to it?

I would ike to see it / them if you can share them Phyllis.

Suspect there may be a reason for not airing it on this little Blog. The simple math says that if .... there really are cost neutral later HS start time proposals out there that do not add incremental bus service, then ..... somebody has to be on those earlier bus runs... It's the elementary or middle school kids.

That sort of opens up a whole new can of worms which is part of why this thing unwound during the 2008 / 2009 window.

Phyllis Payne - SLEEP Leader - posts on Patch at 1:04 am. You should practice what you preach.

each college is diffrent

Mr. Jones is right. There is no way this is going to work unless we spend a lot more money.
I've read the science, but I have also raised teenagers and know that it is possible to adjust the schedules. Has evolution really brought us this far in two hundred years? Farmers and factory workers alike began work early and went to bed early because of the lack of electricity, etc. Lighting was expensive. I just can't believe the "sleep science" has evolved that fast. Perhaps the reason that kids involved in sports and activities are able to manage is because they are physically active-and, thus, able to sleep at night. Just a guess. My kids were generally asleep long before 11 p.m.
I went for a walk in my neighborhood yesterday around 4 p.m. It was a beautiful day. A neighborhood full of young children. I did not see one child outside--they were probably all playing video games. Sad.

Kathy Keith - my kids are involved in sports and they do not play video games or computer games during the school week. My son's health and grades have down downhill since starting high school this year. You should not just guess. You should see the evidence. In fact, come stay at my house for awhile - live my experience.
Also, if my kids stayed up to 11 pm, they would never get up and properly function at school the next day. My kids are asleep by 9:30 10:00 the latest. Last night it was 8:30 - due to exhaustion. No homework was done - sleep and health are more important.
Oh and why didn't you see high schoolers outside Friday at 4 pm? They were participating in their after school sports and activities. High school students don't play outside and don't go for walks. The elementary kids - probably just getting home from school and having a snack or still on the bus as is my neighborhood.

I agree. This is one of the most well thought out comments here. Besides, middle school students only have to go for years. High schoolers are the ones struggling to go with so much on their plates.

Sabrina - why is it a bad idea? Please articulate your reasons.

Jane,

Yes, the School Board didn't say anything about elementary schools start times at all. This leave me wondering - does the School Board even care when the elementary schools will start? Why is there no mention of the elementary school start times in the resolution?

Ref #3: Yes, the School Board forced the Superintendent to collect information on districts that are neither demographically or geographically similar to Fairfax. That will collect a lot of great information! Why not study school districts that are like Fairfax (large suburban districts with more than 100,000 students)? The same group of districts that all start earlier than 8 am?

Ref #5: "The current HS start times are an impediment for many students." Apparently not. In fact, given the consistent results, I'd say the start times work for a large majority of the students.

Ref #6: Yes, as you've claimed repeatedly, there is a study that shows multiple options that are supposedly cost neutral. Can you provide this study? Why is SLEEP the only part of the public privy to this information?

Therese,

Funny, your press releases never state that you are for a healthy school bell for every single FCPS student - just high school students. The School Board resolution doesn't say anything about that either. Why didn't SLEEP urge the board to reaffirm that goal in the resolution?

As far as alternatives, this resolution has already set the terms of the discussion with no community input.

Costs are a part of this and cannot be ignored. FCPS's transportation system is one of the most complex in the nation due to the size of its student population. SLEEP consistently believes that the times they are stressing can be accommodated. There is no doubt they can but there will be a cost not just in a monetary figure but also a social cost as well. Will this cost be too great for the supposed benefit and will students really be able to sleep more hours per night? This has not been proven.

FCPS is one of the largest school systems in the nation, it cannot be compared to others due to its size and uniqueness. Our transportation system is one of the more complex systems in the nation due population, county size, AAP centers, Special Ed centers, alternative schools, magnet schools, TJ etc. The SLEEP issue cannot be oversimplified.

This is good to hear, because it's the first time I've heard it.
Right now a lot of advocates like Janet Otersen are out there insulting everyone who disagrees with them.
If you want a civil discourse that produces a viable plan for all, your own advocates need to work harder on their tone. When someone attacks like she has done, we reserve the right to defend ourselves.

I guess we'd have even more money if we stopped wasting it on SLEEP's demands.

Or...Casey.... we would save money also if we did not need to pay teachers and administrators to hold Saturday school for those who have D's and F's because they sleep through their first class of the day. Or because they come to school 2 minutes late more than two times in a quarter and have to go to detention.

Hi Pat, I appreciate your comments and your position. Could you also address why the Board authorized spending the money to study this issue yet another time after it was exhaustively studied and put down 3-4 years ago? After the analysis and review that I'm hopeful that the board gave to the 2008 / 09 work, did the board find that data inconclusive, or is there some other overwhelming reason why we're on this merry-go-round again?

I'm not pleased that the Board is spending Fairfax County tax dollars to study this issue another time. Does the Board really expect a different fact based result from revisiting the same issues?

Pat,
Nice reply and sensible. I hope the Board does look at all the ramifications and of course includes the public on all discussions. Creative solutions are certainly out there but the cost must be taken into account and sometimes this cost is not always monetary. Appreciate your work and sorry to see such angry comments on this blog.

Pat, thank you for weighing in with such thoughtfulness. I continue to be a huge "Pat" fan! Astonishing email trail! Stu, thank you for weighing in honestly and openly. Even though I disagree with you :-) The issue of Later Start Times is not easy. Even those of us who support it know that. We must weigh pros and cons with STRONG public input. But the process must have integrity, with a genuine spirit of openness, honesty, objectivity and fairness. Sadly, the prior debate felt tainted to me. Staff put forth a bus schedule that NO ONE could support then asked the public for a vote on it. Afterwards some unfairly claimed this vote showed clearly that no one wanted later start times. This myth continues. The rejection of that bus schedule was NOT a vote on the question "do you support later start times?" We NEVER asked that question! I have enormous faith in this new School Board. I am eager to work with it OPENLY on the issues that continue to concern me - specifically the needs of poor and minority students within FCPS, including the impact of changes in start times. Liz, I see you are watching this, having just weighed in with your last name included. If "Elizabeth" is not you, ask her to say so, to end this silly distraction. She knows lots about you and is defending you vehemently, so she must be friend, maybe family. BTW remind her, TOUGH does not mean COURAGEOUS. Courageous people stand in their truth openly in the daylight. You know that. "Martina"

I agree with Pat that the 8 am start time is a good goal, and that it is worth taking the time and effort to see if there is a way that we can implement this in a way that will work for the majority of FCPS students, family, and school personnel. I also agree with Tina that the last time this issue was examined, it was not done in a fair and impartial manner. I voted against it the last time because many members of the sports booster club were informed that a number of sports teams and activities would be cancelled if school start times were moved later. I only just recently learned that this was not true, and that many rumors were started at the time to try to dissuade parents from voting for the proposal. That is why I think it is worth revisiting this issue, as long as this time there is an actual attempt made to try to come up with a schedule that will take ALL concerns into mind. Thanks to everyone involved in this effort, who are spending their time and energy trying to develop a legitimate plan.

I think it is important, as long as we are on the issue of our teens getting enough sleep, that FCPS staff and faculty also consider the issue of the homework load that is being placed on students, especially those in honors or AP classes. I don't know how many people watched the documentary, Race to Nowhere, when it was offered for viewing last year, but I see a lot of what was shown in the movie being experienced by FCPS students as well. The pressure is real, and as Elizabeth said, students who want to apply to many Virginia universities feel compelled to "do it all" in order to present a well-rounded college application. Changing the high school start times will help, but I would like to see the school board and FCPS also address the issue of excessive homework workloads as part of the solution to our high school students getting more sleep.

I understand Sandra's concern about the homework load. However, I really hope this does not rise to a "rule" for teachers from the School Board. Teachers are already being pushed in so many directions about so many issues.
Every time a new curriculum requirement is added, there is less time for instruction and practice in the classroom. This is true K-12. Less time for instruction in the classroom leads to more time on homework at home.
I do think that teachers need to evaluate the purpose and value of the homework. They need to consider whether the homework has value or is just "busy work." However, the teachers don't need more rules. I hope that the School Board will be careful on this issue. Encouragement is one thing-a policy or directive is another. The SOL's and the AP's put great pressure on the teachers.
I suggest the School Board be careful on this one.

I understand that friends are everything to teens. However, until age 18, teenagers are still "minors" and as such, we cannot expect them all to make rational or good decisions. That is why we classify them as minors that still require parental care and guidance. We don't 'ask' them if they would "like" to wear their seat belt or go to school every day or take SOLs or go to the doctor when they have a 103 degree fever, etc. And we don't allow them to drive at night right away after getting their license or play football or ride motorcycles without a helmet or go to bars or burlesque shows or smoke pot or get married at age 14, etc.

Parents and school board members have a "duty" to do things or make kids do things that are in their best interest and that sometimes entails making them do things they would rather not. Sleep, like food, is a necessity for the human body. It's just that simple.

Oh for Pete's sake. I asked my son for his thoughts on the matter because I value his input and I respect his opinion. He provided a perspective I hadn't thought about.

But, hey, thanks for the lecture. I guess I'll tell my son the burlesque show and helmetless motorcycle rides are off the schedule until he turns 18.

Groovis-

I agree that our kids should be included in the discussion. As far as your personal situation, it would seem that your son's after school activity would simply be pushed back in the day with a later start time. Teachers have contractual work immediately after school--helping kids, lesson plans, etc, so I guess activities would start later so your kid would still have his chill time with his friends.

If this is the case, would you support giving your son more sleeptime in the am?

Janet - I'm reserving judgment until I see the specifics of the proposal. On the surface it sounds like a good idea - but I'd like to see how it will affect other parts of the community (i.e., elementary, middle schools, community sports, etc). Also, I'm skeptical that this can be accomplished for zero cost. If it does cost the district money, then I'd like to see an order of magnitude and the opportunity costs for use of those funds elsewhere.

If it is a zero coster - then, I'd certainly support it. However, at this point, I've got a "wait and see" attitude.

It's also very curious that this resolution was introduced the week before Spring Break (when most families are focused on vacation) and passed the week after (when most families are recovering from Spring Break).

It's almost as if they didn't want anybody to notice until its too late.

Shame on the sleeping majority for allowing this to go down this way. Post 2008, this special interest group stayed organized, got members elected to the board and hammered their agenda back to the top of the stack. Now, Fairfax County taxpayers are going to pay the 1/4 to 1/2 million + $$'s to fund the study, inevitable public surveys and the lengthy public debate that will follow.

At the end of the day, suspect the outcome will look like it has the other 3-5 times this has been evaluated, but we, the taxpayers, will pay a pretty penny to fund the process. Many will also be drawn from their otherwise busy lives to put this down yet one more time.

The ironic part of this is, that for the moment, this whole issue is still VERY much under the radar screen with the general public in Fairfax County. While this issue is being hotly debated on a somewhat obscure "Patch" blog, not more than 2 in 10 county residents have even heard that this issue is officially back on the table.

Razz - first, who are you to say that the sleeping majority would agree with you? My guess is that it would come down to how well people inform themselves. Those of us who are in favor of this change are not the "loud minority" - we are people who are engaged, informed, and care about young people. I am a teacher and can assure you that elementary students would benefit from this change just as much as high school students. I don't necessarily want to get up earlier, but I will do it for the greater good of my community. If it is true that not more than 2 in 10 county residents have heard about this (not sure where you are pulling those numbers from), then they either don't care or don't have the time to keep up with school board issues - in that case, will they notice the change?

I guess Dr. King, Medgar Evers, Bobby Kennedy, Rosa Parks, and all the Freedom Riders were just the "loud minority" - but they were certainly shouting about a change that needed to happen.

Casey Cosgrove should realize that the school board chair, Jane Strauss, controls the agenda. Complaints about how the minority got the resolution passed need to talk to her.

Heather - My opinion regarding where the majority would land on this issue is based on history. If we helicopter up a bit, the one glaring thing that has changed since this issue was put down several years ago, is that voters elected a new School Board last November that collectively is more supportive of this initiative when compared to past boards.

Pls don't miss my point, I agree that extra sleep could be a good thing for high school students, but multiple and expensive FFX Cty studies conducted over approximately two decades have repeatedly delivered the same "no-change" recommendations at the end of the process. The overall cost of change has simply been considered too high for FFX Cty to absorb (in terms of incemental transportation expense, earlier start times for some younger kids, accommodating work and commute schedules, leaving time for after school activites, organized sport access to fields and facilities ... etc etc)

No, I'm not happy that the Board has authorized spending more FFX Cty tax dollars for funding this exercise yet another time, but that's a done deal at this point. Train has left the station.

Razz - I can certainly understand your point of view on spending money, as I am an FCPS teacher and would like to see a major shift in fund placement (and I actually am not necessarily talking about salaries, believe it or not); however, I think the biggest problem I have is that the results of "FCPS studies" always seem to have the outcome desired by a few "higher ups" and often are not aligned with general public sentiment. I truly believe that any "majority" opposition the last go round had to do with gross misinformation coming out of those "studies"....did you see my post about the transportation dept. putting forth a NO-COST plan in 2009?

Heather - I did see your post. Any chance you can post a link to the actual proposal? I'd like to read through it.

"Special interest minority" - because they are.

Even if you believe they have 9000 members (which I don't), that's less than 0.01% of the Fairfax County population.

And, no, they don't speak for my kids. My wife and I do.

"like defending not heating schools during a blizzard"

Dr. Snider displays her complete ignorance of Fairfax County - the smallest hint of snow is enough to shut down FCPS, much less a blizzard!

Don't be rude Casey - this is just an analogy. And the smallest hint of snow does not shut down FCPS. When roads are not safe in the entire county, we need to close schools or delay opening. IF you cannot discuss this intelligently and respectfully, please refrain from commenting.

Elaine,

It was a joke. I apologize if it didn't come across that way.

Heather,

Are you referring to the failed Iteration #3? The one a large majority of the public rejected? Could you be more specific?

The one a large majority of the public rejected? Could you be more specific?
**********************************************************************************************
I am not being sarcastic, I swear....How was this issue presented to the "public"?

Did PTAs vote on it?

Aside from the SB vote on the matter--how did the public vote?

Janet,

I can't answer your questions, because I'm not sure what Heather is referring to. "A Washington Post article in 2009" doesn't give a lot of information.

In any case, I wouldn't care if the PTAs voted on it or not. They don't speak for me.

Casey - the article did not specify the "iteration" to which was being referred. My best guess is that it was probably #3, since that is the only one that did not cost additional dollars (it actually saved money, I believe). More importantly, please explain "the one a large majority of the public rejected." I am not a member of any PTAs, so please don't go there - I am a very involved citizen, parent, and employee, and I did not know about this plan/iteration until well after the board voted down the SLEEP initiative. I can assure you that there were MANY, MANY furious citizens when that bit of information finally reached the news waves, so to speak. In my opinion, FPCS should start with Iteration 3 and tweak it a bit - I'd bet my bottom dollar on it getting support from the real majority.

Heather,

Umm, if memory serves, Iteration #3 was the only "no cost" proposal put forth in the County survey and was rejected by about 70% of the people who participated in the survey. I think it would require a little more than a "tweaking" to get anybody to accept it.

Some here have stated that there was a follow on effort by FCPS, but no results have been publicly released as far as I know. I'm still curious as to how members of SLEEP seem to know all about it.

Casey - umm, you totally missed my point. You continue to state that a large majority of the public does not want to adjust start times (and now "70% of respondents to the survey") but fail to recognize that ALL FCPS studies and surveys are ridiculously flawed and results of such end up ridiculously skewed. Would you like me to elaborate? As an employee, I have to complete several surveys each year, and I can tell you that we all laugh at the results. You did not answer Janet's question about how this was presented to the public - why? When an outside study is done (to include all factors - not just cost) and an outside public opinion survey is conducted, then I will listen.

Furthermore, I have really yet to understand your position on this whole issue. All I see are comments from you (condescending ones, I might add) pointing out where everyone else is wrong. Have you said somewhere just exactly why you oppose later start times. If you have, I apologize for this part of my response...but I am beginning to wonder about you and a couple of other posters.

Heather - From your post ..... "but fail to recognize that ALL FCPS studies and surveys are ridiculously flawed and results of such end up ridiculously skewed."

Can you link us to some official facts to back up your statement, or is this strictly your opinion? I think we've had some fairly seasoned professional folks looking at what to do with this issue over 20 years and they've made the right decisions for the county multiple times in the past. We've certainly paid them enough to do the work...

Casey's comments regarding the 70% majority being against making the changes he refers to above are exactly what I remember regarding the no cost option. Sure would like to get my hands on the actual recommendation and supporting data. Likely wouldn't play so well in the light of day ... It didn't during 2008 / 09.

The real debates on all this are yet to come now that this genie is officially out of the bottle again. This blog, in which 70 + of us have engaged in is likely a "tempest in a tea pot" compared to what is to come. Buckle up. :-)

OK – Razz…I will revise my statement to say “all of the FCPS surveys that I have personally participated in are seriously flawed, hence the results are skewed.” I can’t link you to facts because FCPS would be have to be the provider of them…somehow I doubt they have investigated the fallacy of their own surveys. LOL. Funny – and suspicious – that you refer to Casey’s comment. I was just saying to myself the other night that it seems the two of you are connected. I wouldn’t be surprised if one of you were Dr. Dale himself. 

My feeling is that 70% of “survey respondents” does not equate to 70% of citizens – random sampling of uninformed/misinformed people is hardly compelling evidence. But, just for argument’s sake – let’s suppose it is true that a large majority opposed in 2009. My bet is that a lot of folks have changed their minds…that tends to happen when people are provided all of the information and facts. I am guessing that is why the genie came out of the bottle again?

And one last attempt for either of you to explain your position on this? It really does seem like your only aim is to rattle chains and throw out the proverbial red herring. Any time someone makes sense, one of you tries to discredit. Just sayin' (as young people would say).

Heather, I'm not sure if the survey you guys are all talking about is the one where they asked parents to vote on whether or not they would be in favor of moving the start time later. If it is, then as I've mentioned in other comments, I was one of those who voted against it, only because our sports boosters were informed that if the high school start times were moved back, FCPS would be cancelling a number of sports. I later found out (after I voted) that this was not true. I also heard that the plan they suggested was deliberately not one that they thought would be palatable to the public. This time, I am in favor of the time change as long as the plan that is put forth addresses the concerns that torpedoed it last time. If FCPS can put together start times that still allow sports and after school activities, and also addresses childcare issues, etc. then I think there will much more support for it. The problem, as I see it, is that FCPS has a history of deciding what it wants to do, pretending to solicit parent viewpoints, and then going ahead and doing whatever it wanted to do in the first place. This time, the school board needs to make sure that FCPS submits a plan that will honestly try to do its best to address all concerns, so that the majority of people will be happy with it.

Sorry, I've been unable to get around to this discussion lately.

On surveys to date:

As far as I know, all surveys (including the FCPS and FCCPTA surveys) on this issue have been somewhat flawed due to sampling bias. They aren't true random surveys and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Additionally, survey questions such as "Do you support later start times?" are worthless, because they decouple the cost from the benefit and do not allow the public to make a true assessment of the cost/benefit.

What the public wants and what it's willing to pay for are two vastly different things.

Heather -

"I wouldn’t be surprised if one of you were Dr. Dale himself." - that's too funny!

"My feeling is that 70% of “survey respondents” does not equate to 70% of citizens – random sampling of uninformed/misinformed people is hardly compelling evidence."

Certainly, the FCPS survey wasn't 70% of citizens (I don't think that's even possible unless you start paying them money to participate). It wasn't a random sampling - it was self selected. These are admitted flaws.

However, why do you say the public was uninformed or misinformed? There was no plan at the time for any of the issues this change raised. There still isn't.

What new information is available?

Heather -

You asked for my position on this. It's simple - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The current schedule works and has produced consistent and laudable results.

The proponents of this change have failed to provide a consistent, logical, or compelling argument for it, nor have they identified any mitigation plan for the various problems that this proposed change will cause.

Why would I be for a change that has uncertain benefits and unknown costs when the current schedule has known good results and certain, understood, and accepted costs?

Why are you for it?

A few examples of non-compelling arguments by proponents of this change -

1) Proponents state that Loudoun and Arlington counties have later start times. First, neither of these counties are similar to Fairfax in terms of population or geography, so the comparison is moot. But let's pretend they are. Do they perform better? Do their teens actually get more sleep? Do you see how much more compelling this point would be with that information?

2) Proponents state that an early start time is a detriment to learning. The obvious contradiction is FCPS itself. The apparent conflict between the scientific evidence and the continued success of FCPS suggests that the start time is not nearly as important as proponents suggest. How do proponents explain this apparent disconnect?

3) Proponents point to the 5:45 am bus ride, which I agree sounds darn early. But how many kids are on that bus at that time? Certainly not all bus riders start at 5:45. What's the distribution of pick up times? Can the early bus routes be optimized at minimal cost without changing the start times? Are these kids going to TJ (ie, they knowingly chose an early morning start)?

I could go on, but (ironically) I need to go to bed myself.

Sandra – we are on the same page, same paragraph, and same line. 

Casey – you’ve got to be kidding me??? You are the one who threw out the “70% of people rejected it” and now you are backtracking to say the sampling/survey was flawed. What’s up with that? Furthermore, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”??? Studies by hundreds of education and health entities – including NIH – have made it very clear that it IS broke. I have yet to see results of a study on this issue that does not support the initiative to adjust HS start times. If you have, please share. Your mention of the success of FCPS is laughable – success by Jay Matthews index? Please define success. That FCPS has the highest percentage of students taking AP classes does not define it for me.

As far as students not being on the bus at 5:45…that is NOT the issue – we’re talking about SLEEP, Casey! If they are getting out of bed (i.e, awakening) at 5:45, they are certainly not sleeping. Proponents of this initiative want teenagers to be ASLEEP at 5:45 a.m. It’s really that simple, quite frankly.

And finally, the last time I checked, a teenager is a teenager is a teenager – whether he/she lives in Loudon, Arlington, Fairfax, or Timbuktu! So what if we have more of them? We still need to figure out how to do what is best for that demographic. Size of the system is just a lame excuse to be lazy and maintain the status quo. Have you seen the study done by the Minnesota school system – it is quite extensive in showing that the later start time DOES positively affect achievement, attendance, tardiness, depression issues, etc., etc. Please ask me to post the links to all of the evidence – I will be happy to do so.

Heather -

Yes, I've read the study on the Minnesota schools. By all accounts, this was a failing school system. You probably could have painted all the schools green and seen some kind of positive effect.

Nobody is saying that Fairfax County has poor results. In fact, we're doing quite well despite the claimed "too early" start times. The results of the Minnesota study are not relevant to this county.

Heather -

Nothing in your reply actually addresses any of my issues.

"Studies by hundreds of education and health entities – including NIH – have made it very clear that it IS broke." - so explain the disconnect between these studies and the continued success of FCPS. I'm still waiting for that answer.

Size of the system is quite relevant, but I'm sorry you don't see that. Proponents continually make the comparison to Loudoun and Arlington, so it's fair to ask if these systems actually are seeing the claimed benefits of later start times. Are they?

I'm glad you want them asleep by 5:45am, but ask yourself - given that the current schedule works so well, is a later start time really that important?

These are valid questions, Heather. The fact that vocal proponents can't or won't answer them is telling.

In response to Casey Cosgrove's final comment to this post: this blog and its hundreds (maybe) of readers is not the place to resolve all these issues or to satisfy every bloggers' bones of contention. These points can be raised and debated in public forums when and if the issue comes to the public from the school board for discussion & input. There are many, many issues impacting student achievement. How much is being spent--both time and money--on remediation and special SOL tutoring to ensure academic success? Until FCPS evaluates such efforts and why the students need extra help, no one can know what Casey asks about Fairfax. But, as long as there are ANY students who suffer in our schools, the impact of sleep deficits must be considered in the discussions of how to help them. But, following along with other analogies Casey makes...imagine how much better the achievements of our students could be at much less cost with more attentive, better-behaved, healthier children in school & behind the wheel in an atmosphere more conducive to learning, safety, health and success.

Casey… you are not getting the answer you request because you have not defined “success” or “doing quite well” – as I have asked you to do. Using my definition of those two terms, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. What is your gauge/measurement tool? Perhaps we are using very different measures to define success? You say nobody is saying the FCPS has “poor results” – but fail to mention what results you are talking about. Depression rates among FCPS student is at an all time high. Is that not poor results? I would trade high test scores for a zero suicides among students any day. Perhaps that has not hit close enough to home for you, but it certainly has for me.

It’s funny that you mention the “failing status” of the Minnesota school system, yet did not mention the same when it came to the “14 largest counties in the US”….you are using an argument that you negated when I used it??? More importantly, you continue to ask about Loudon and Arlington seeing benefits of their later start times. Has it ever occurred to you that there are not studies on this because they never had earlier start times to begin with???

Nearly 75% of Virginia high schools start after 8 am. The size of the county does not matter one bit – it can be done. If the current schedule worked so well, as you say…there would not be so much discussion about changing it. It doesn’t work so well for many high school students, and I can assure you that it doesn’t wo
rk so well for elementary students, either. As I have said numerous times, younger students are more focused earlier in the morning and are completely tuned out by early afternoon. It is just the opposite for teenagers. This is a no brainer.

From the chief of the Division of Sleep at the Stanford University School of Medicine at Stanford…"Sending kids to school at 7 a.m. is the equivalent of sending an adult to work at 4 a.m. It's almost abusive to them,"
From the Brookings Institution…”first-year students at the U.S. Air Force Academy start classes between 7 and 8:50 a.m. Researchers found that students starting classes before 8 a.m. performed worse not only in their first-period courses but in all their courses.”
From the National Association of Secondary School Principals….”You know a school or a school district is in trouble when the strategic plan follows the principles of the ABC School of Management--Administration By Convenience. One of the best indicators of an adult-focused environment, one that is practicing the principles of ABC, is when research is blatantly ignored in favor of current practice. School start times dramatically impacts academic achievement, behavior, motivation, and student engagement.”

So which is it, Heather? How many are investigating and how many have implemented?

There's quite a difference there, but you mangled them together to make your argument sound more impressive.

I did not mean to "mangle" anything, as I don't think it much matters whether they have implemented or not...the fact that they are investigating is evidence that they believe it is a worthwhile initiative. Prince Georges has already implemented but is phasing it in, so not all schools are later - but none start before 7:30. Montgomery County is way more serious in their efforts to implement than FCPS - and have significant support from citizens. As far as the schools in Florida are concerned, it is FLORIDA - need I say more??? And, before you have a sarcastic response to that - I am a native Floridian who lived in that state for all of the years of my K-12 schooling. I am well informed about the state of education in the Sunshine State - past and present.

And, Casey - just for the record - I was not going for "impressive"....that's not at all my style. I am SIMPLY stating my thoughts.

Sorry, Heather. I didn't realize that expressing an opinion or a different point of view means "it's all about me." As Joubert said, "It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it."

Groovis - I am all for expressing opinions and differing points of view. I am very open-minded; however, the argument you put forth via your son was not exactly compelling and seemed a bit self-serving (in my opinion). It is my [humble] opinion that the focus should be on benefits to learning and what is best for young people in Fairfax County. Another part of the equation is the fact that our kids are overscheduled and overburdened with homework. I don't think that later school start times is directly corellated with less time for hanging out with friends - as others have stated since your post...the school day would be shifted later by 40 minutes or so and that time would still be available. So, if you take that off the table, what would your son say then? I would be very interested in hearing THAT answer.

Wow. So you believe you know what's "best for young people in Fairfax County" because you are "open-minded," but if someone actually asks a young person their opinion, that's self-serving? Sheesh.

Frankly, I won't know how I really feel about this issue until I see the actual FCPS proposal. But I'm fairly certain that being called "self-serving" and having my kid's opinion denigrated isn't doing much to sway my opinion in favor of it. It's probably good that you chose teaching and not marketing.

Groovis - I am completely bewildered by your comment, and you come across extrememly defensive. Maybe you should try reading my comment again without assuming some kind of "tone" or "arrogance" on my part, which I assure you there is NONE. Nowhere do I state or even imply I know what is best for young people anywhere - I simply said that the debate should stay focused on benefits to learning, as this is what (and I restate here "in my opinion") changes to start times is based on in the first place. Furthermore, I am not the only person to ask what your son would think if you removed his concern from the table - but you have not answered that question, Why? I can't speak for the other person that asked, but I genuninely care to know the answer. My advice - with very friendly intentions - is that you put aside assumptions on comment threads such as these because I can assure you that the ones you've made about me are extremely off the mark.

I agree. Students today, especially those in honors, AP, and IB are faced with a huge amount of homework. They don't have time to use Facebook, and when they text, it is to ask for help when they don't understand a homework problem. In our house, we don't ever watch TV - there just isn't time. Our typical day includes school, an afterschool activity, homework, and bed. There are days when teachers all assign a load of homework problems, written assignments, and then there are 3 exams the next day, and my child gets 4 or 5 hours of sleep.

Graham, you raise two excellent points.

Steve Hunt, an engineer who was on the School Board, analyzed FCPS bus routes a couple of years ago. He concluded that FCPS could SAVE up to $5 million per year by starting 5 high schools at 8 am and not changing the start times for any elementary or middle schools.

You are absolutely right that we need an Independent Auditor to get to the bottom of this. We also need a truly independent Audit Committee. Right now, the Superintendent and Deputy Superintendent sit on the FCPS Audit Committee. That would be illegal if FCPS were a publicly traded corporation, and it is contrary to best practices for public boards.

Our Supervisors have an independent Audit Committee, without managers and with community members to provide additional financial expertise and independence. Our Supervisors have an Independent Auditor who doesn't report to the county executive, either directly or indirectly. FCPS should follow suit.

As an aside, the recent School Board decision to change the title of the FCPS director of internal audit to School Board auditor - and to change the dotted line on the FCPS organization chart - shouldn't fool anyone. She's still the same person. And she still, for all practical purposes, is supervised by Superintendent Dale.

Let's hope that the reform-minded members of the School Board win this battle to improve transparency and accountability.

I am so stunned by your comment that I can't even respond. You are seriously misguided in your "Facebook Study." Your observations couldn't be farther from the truth.

You are cyberstalking your child's friends? That is so creepy and so wrong! I assume you are doing it with your child's account, because what kid would friend a classmate's mom? Please stop doing this immediately.

Virtual high school is an interesting concept but not directly relevant to the topic at hand. Whatever strengths/weaknesses it may have - and flexibility of scheduling would be one possible strength - the conversation belongs elsewhere. I'd love to participate in that thread when it gets started, though.

@Michael - I was trying to get people to move over to that thread...for a variety of reasons but the primary being that this one doesn't seem to be going anywhere but downhill. :)

I don't understand why you think this issue is tied to the sunrise. The only time I have seen that mentioned is in reference to kids heading off to school in the dark during the winter, which some see as a problem. However, the amount of daylight hours has nothing to do with the issue of school start times. What is actually being debated is whether to set high school start times to better match our teens' sleep schedules. When start times are not in sync with teen sleep cycles, then many students do not achieve optimal learning. I agree with you that there are also other issues that affect student learning (my particular bugaboo is the amount of mind-numbing busywork that some teachers assign), and those issues should also be taken into consideration.

I happen to agree with most, if not all of what Casey has written on this blog.

I don't mind some extra sleep for our kids, but I'm NOT for paying big bucks to make changes to start times. I especially DO NOT LIKE the way this whole thing is being worked under the general public radar screen. We all pay our fair share of county taxes in FFX Cty ... And yes, I do have a child in high school, and yes sports are a huge issue for my family as well.

FFX Cty Sch Bd .. let's get this issue out to the public this summer for input ... It's your fiduciary duty to do so!

Chuckling .... Heather .... Dr. Dale isn't present .., unless it's Casey, or maybe you ..... :-) Remember the "A Tempest in a Teapot" comment ... Sheesh .. :-)

Yes, it's such a national issue that the online petition to set a national start time standard has a grand total of just over 5,000 signatures. That's an amazing level of national disinterest.

"There you go again, Casey" - are you channeling Ronald Reagan? That makes me the Jimmy Carter of this debate... next I'll be attacked by rabbits!

"The 5,000 signatures was all that was needed to bring the petition to Congress." - That's a laughably low bar for something you claim has "national" attention.

You and me both, Joseph P. It has denegrated into a very lackluster debate and become nothing more than personal diatribes.

At the bottom of the email notifications you are receiving, you should see something that say, "Click here to manage all of your updates or here to stop receiving updates for this article." Click on the second "here" in that sentence, and you should be good to go. Thanks!